new 8/20/03
I am towing my car today to Rickety Engineering to have my cams welded. I am just a little hesitant, as others have told me that this will ruin my cams and that since the cams are made of titanium that it is impossible to weld to this metal. Some of the local mechanics that I have talked with also, have never heard of this and suggested that I get all my information and research before I have this done.
As this is my only vehicle and I work 80 plus miles (one way) from where I live, can anybody send me some reassurance, explanation, information, or guarantee that this is the correct way to have the cams repaired.
I am just really worried, can't afford to lose the car completely or pay thousands of dollars for major repairs.
Thanks, Amy Myers
Mine are welded, and it is the only way to fix the problem, yes they could be pinned, but I think welding is just as good, mine have been pinned for about 8k, and that is just from April of this year, Kirk welded mine, but I would trust Ricky too, he has been dealing with SHO's since the Gen 1, he has not done as many as Kirk, but he does good work, quick question, did the people who said it would ruin it, own a V8, I have been a proud member of the SHO community since 1992, I will trust these people with my car, and if the cams would fail in a High sped situation it could cost you or someone you love there life, that said it means I trust them with my LIFE, think about it when your Mechanic works on your car, especially the Brake system, you are trusting your Life to them, Get the cams welded , it will give you peace of mind and it is really not that expensive all things considered, that is my .02
John Stout
First consider that the cams are STEEL. We have had them analyzed as to the exact steel content so we know what we are talking about. Then disregard EVERYTHING that someone says who thinks the cams are titanium and cannot be welded.
Second consider all of the cams that have been successfully welded (and cars and owners that have been saved from horrible consequences).
Third read the stories on v8sho.com of cars and peoples lives who have been absolutely ruined when their cams failed.
Dean James
This is the correct way and the ONLY way.. I have welded 155 cars so far and each and everyone still runs strong. The shafts are not titanium they are a harden steel. I don't know where you are getting the info from but they are totally 100 percent incorrect.
Kirk J Doucette
I can't tell you what to do with your car. It is yours... However, having my cams welded was the best 700.00 I ever spent. It is nice knowing that my car is not going to self destruct... I also think that everyone on this forum will agree. I think there are reports of people who have gone over 40k on welded cams. That says to me, that if taken to the right place... Your car will be fine. Where as there are a lot of cases of people who were waiting to get them welded. And now are out car shopping, as they can not afford a replacement motor. In closing, I am not an engine guy. I work on transmissions. But my cams are welded, and I feel great. And by the way, so does the car.
Mike Yeager
First, you can't just say "others have told me...". You have to tell us who, so we can set them straight.
Second, all the research and information you desire can be found at www.v8sho.com. There are countless failures to otherwise good engines. There are many, many people with welded cams and no problems. There are cases where people have pinned the cams and had problems.
Third, move closer to your job or get a new job closer to you :^P Just
kidding, but that is a "fer piece" to drive every day, even in a
cruiser
as nice as a V8 SHO.
I would trust Rickety to weld my cams. Why are you towing the car there? Is it ticking already? If you don't feel you're in any serious danger you could wait 'til Kirk comes to Ohio ;^)
Good luck with whatever you decide to do.
Steve Tatro
You should be rest assured that they will do a good job. The cams are not titanium and can be welded like any other iron based metal. Good move if you are looking for a dependable car.
Paul Nimz
Even if the cams were made of Ti, they could be welded...done all the time in aerospace, refining / petrochemical, medical, sports, etc., applications.
Bill H.
sold Ti, & other ferrous & non ferrous alloys.
I respectfully submit that any unwelded engine is in danger every minute it is running. I would not advise anyone to wait. The very next time the car is started it might self destruct.
Dean James
Amy, I am in the same situation as you. I am unwelded but scheduled in 3 weeks to have them done at a Ford dealership (of all places) in Pa. However, I am meeting with an engineer who welds for a living. I am told by another friend, a machinist by trade, who has been welding all of his life, that there is something to be skeptical about. He said if anyone would know, talk to this welding engineer. When I talk to him, I will let all those interested know what he says. Again, I am scheduled to have this done too, but to play devils advocate to Kirk and all, I'm sure the cars that have been welded are performing fine. Most were performing fine prior to the weld. It was done as a preventative measure. The question is, if we looked at one of the oldest welds, done by Kirk, or whomever, opened it and several others for examination, how do the welds look? Are they holding? Do we know? More to come.......
I would rather have known about this problem, and welded my cams then have had them cause me total engine failure in Nov 2001 to the cost of $4800 for a replacement engine.
Scott Wemstrom
Weld them, Don't weld we don't really care, maybe the sky won't fall, Hell the Cubs could win the World Series, we are just trying to save people pain Agony and a LOT of Money. If you ever meet Kirk the first thing you figure out is when it comes to cars the V8 SHO in particular he is dead serious, so if you want to believe that he has taken more than a month away from his son to do Cam welds, kinda shows he thinks there is a problem, I may not know a lot of things (Hush Breen) but I do know to listen when people are really trying to help me. Last comment (for now) I just love the way the Lurkers come out of the woodwork with advice to the newbies :-)
John Stout
Kirk has gotten looks at welds done by FPS and others that are a couple of years old, that is about when all this started, so other than a SHO in Europe, that appears to be welded from the factory (!) there won't be much more "history" than that.
What we DO know is that probably well more than 50% (some say over 90%, but I tend to be somewhat conservative) of SHO cams will fail. We KNOW that one car has had THREE cams fail! More than one person has had TWO MOTORS have cams fail BEFORE we started doing the cam welds.
Not one properly welded cam has ever failed yet, and I don't think they will. The only failures have been those done with cold spot welds, or welds on sprockets that were already loose (not recommended, you must replace ones that bad).
Be interesting to hear what these folks say, but if they guy says it isn't necessary, then we know that HIS advice is suspect. WE know it IS necessary, and that of the options available, it is the most cost effective and cheapest alternative.
What, I wonder is there to be skeptical about?
Don Mallinson
SHO club
Welding has worked great for the first 2,000 folks, the only nay sayers are speculating in pure ignorance.
read, http://www.v8sho.com/SHO/MortalityTables.htm
http://www.v8sho.com/SHO/StillskepticalaboutCamWelding.htm
http://v8sho.com/SHO/FordMakesHouseCallsThisWeekend.htm
http://v8sho.com/SHO/StatisticalLookNumber4.htm
Cams are steel, even Ford welded 2 sets to test,
Tim
BTW, 3 folks with 3 cam failures each.
http://www.v8sho.com/SHO/DebKudmaCamFailure182183184.htm
http://www.v8sho.com/SHO/JimMillerCamFailure186187188.htm
http://www.v8sho.com/SHO/LyndaMayesCamFailure204205206.htm
If the people you are meeting with were metallurgists, I wouldn't be so skeptical.
Bill Hayward
This is not rocket science, it's WELDING!! There is nothing magic about welding cams. The stresses are far less than many other parts that rely on welds. High pressure water/gas pipes, race cars, space shuttles, and the cars you drive everyday rely on welds to keep things together. It is not often that I hear of bad welds causing failures.
I totally discount the skeptics as being ignorant of the issues and the capabilities of a good welder. And yes, I know that there are a few experienced ASE Techs out there who have some brains, but the opinions of most mechanics are not very valid. They know how to swap parts and read an OBD code scanner (maybe!!).
Ron Porter
If you look on the website, there IS an analysis of the cams by a metallurgist. He offers recommendations on the materials and procedures for the welding.
While I had various SHO's torn down in my dad's shop for welding, I've had a lot of varied people come by and wonder what I was doing. After I explain to them, nobody had questioned the need for the welds of the validity of the procedure.
I was a mechanic, now I'm an engineer. I've studied welding, stresses, metallurgy, whatever. I never questioned the need or the validity myself, and the first car that I welded was my own. I've added 12,000 miles to it since welding and it has not had problems with the welds.
Dean James
http://www.v8sho.com/SHO/CamshaftHardnessTesting.htm
http://www.v8sho.com/SHO/CamMetallurgyBeforeYouWeld.htm
See now if you asked questions before stepping in and speaking about things that are unknown to you this may not have gotten so far..
Yes I have seen cars that have 60k (60000) miles on a welded motor, results? Absolutely perfect. As far as stress over time will Ill bet you what ever that I put more stress on MY motor at Blackhawk than anyone will ever see in nominal use for commuting and even a bit of racing. Am I better? No but I sure am harder on the V8 than most. On a GOOD not slipping cam you are adding only a security blanket to your motor, the original lock on the cams were fine and now you made it all 1 solid piece. They cant fail if they were good and welded..
Sure be a skeptic, I certainly was! Who would ever thought that anyone would have to weld a camshaft? Nonetheless while installed in the motor. But it needs to be done if you want to keep the car, or if NOT a wealthy person that likes to piss money down the drain.. I’m neither and so isn’t 155 of my customers and the other MAYBE 200 done from the other places.
Now, if you want more of my opinion – half of the names of folks who will weld your cams should be thrown away. Don’t take the car to someone that has done a few because they are still learning and only here and doing this for the money. Adding someone’s name because they did 1 is total BS to me. (IMHO) and others that have listed that in their SIGS that its done like me too. How do they know how I do anything? Because they can read from this email list? Sounds like they should have run the IT department at my last job, they know it all but have no idea what to look or how to fix other things. But they have read how to do it- so they are qualified? This will make some people that THINK they are trying to do a good job at getting all of the cars fixed but when something does happen, even though there is a disclaimer you know that these individuals will take the brunt of all of it. But yet people will still travel around doing this for weeks at a time to make a whopping 400 when everything is said and done..
Amy, picking Rickity was a Good move. In my eyes - and this is not to hurt any friendships but they would be the only pic on my list in the Midwest, he has been around the SHO for a LONG time and likes the car and while in business to make money they go beyond the common weld service that you will find out there. Everything is replaced with Ford parts and no corners are cut re-using old parts. I apologize with the flood of email you got because of this and the Sandbaggers worthless opinions, I'm thinking now what I should do is just end this little bandwagon that everybody is doing here to make a dollar and make a video on how to do this on your own..
PS a BIG selling point of buying my wrecked 96 Rose Mist was that Eric from Rickity welded and serviced this motor…. If that tells you anything.
Kirk J Doucette
Whoever told you you can't weld titanium then they aren't very smart. I was in the Navy for 12 years. I was on a sub that a lot of it's seawater systems where made out of titanium for its resistance to corrosion, lightweight and strength. Obviously to get all the pieces in there they had to WELD them all. I figure if those welds on that titanium can resist breaking from the sea pressure due to the depth we dove then I 'm sure they are fine to weld in this application. Not to mention when you dive the boat all the metals are flexed and essentially get crushed some and expand again has you change depth. This obviously introduces cyclic stresses also into the welds. Guess what, they still hold like a champ.
We even had people on the boat certified to weld titanium if it was deemed necessary when we were underway to make repairs. Thank God that never happened of course.
Garrett Williams
I must say that one nice thing about having Kirk weld my cams was all the stuff he did for me that wasn't listed at no further cost. When he opens that engine up, hell even before that, he is looking for things that don't look right or you might have problems with down the road. This man knows this engine inside and out and really cares more about the cars than the money he's making, which is very little to none after you see what goes into this and the time it takes. I can't speak for the others out there that weld the cams because i don't know them. This was just my experience with him since he did mine.
Garrett Williams
I think the titanium cam is a red herring, excuse my nautical talk; from http://www.v8sho.com/SHO/CamMetallurgyBeforeYouWeld.htm
Mat'l analysis of the V8 Composite Camshaft as follows;
Camshaft: Tool L6 - Special Purpose Low Alloy Tool Steel
Sprocket: SAE 3145 - Med-High Carbon Alloy Tool Steel
--------------
Two years ago when this all started, one could argue their car had too few miles to be of concern and that they had time to consider their options. It is clear to most member of this list that Ford has no intention of issuing a recall and taking any responsibility. We have reports of many cars with cam failures before 40k miles but the majority of failures occur between 50k and 100k. The population of V8 SHOs built between 96-99 with significantly less than 40k miles at less of a risk is now insignificant, therefore the Consensus Recommendation. Don't wait for symptoms, you may never get any. Everyone with a V8 SHO, if you haven't already, get your cams welded by a reputable shop, yesterday would be good.
Buford
And I submit with all due respect that your engineer and all of his friends need to hold a cam with a freewheeling sprocket. People of high caliper have already been through this drill (pardon the pun) several years ago and the two options were found to be the most secure mode of saving our cars engines that have been well designed with the exception of the cams. Weld 'em (most cost effective) or Pin 'em (very pricey) do nothing - feeling lucky????
Larry Eck
Point one: ( I am sure somebody has beat me to this) The cams are not TITANIUM! Even if they were, it to could be welded.
Point two: What expertise does the person or persons who have told you "this will ruin your cams", have in the field of the Yamaha Built engines in the SHO? Yes, just cause a person works on Ford automobile engines doesn't qualify them to work on all automotive engines. Many people here have more experience individually with the SHO engine design, service and repair then all the Ford dealerships collectively have in several states I have visited.
Point three: We're are not here to take your money, unlike some of the possible experts that have tried to talk you out of welding. We are avid (for the most part) fans of this car (not necessarily FORD obviously). Some of us have products and services to sell, but none of us are going to tell you to get your cam welded for financial gain. Not even Kirk, if you are not close enough he will send you somewhere else.
Point four: None of us want to see all these cars in salvage yards cause somebody was afraid the welds would ruin the engine. One thing is guaranteed, not welding will put you in the "high-risk" group where as welding completely removes you from that classification.
Point Five: Where else besides Ford has any information gathered on how to prevent this failure from happening? You have come to the right place. Sorry for the rant but to hear that somebody said "it will ruin your cams" just makes me crazy!
Carter Fuji
One last point, I heard about the possible failures in July of 2001, was skeptical it would or even could happen to me or any other car, as an avid car enthusiast and highly trained in the automotive field. It cost me $7,824.84 four months later for my mistake in ignoring the advise. I had my brand new cams in my brand new motor welded before the engine was even taken out of the crate
. Carter Fuji
Question? What question?
Welded V8SHO = Successful Vehicle
UnWelded V8SHO = Unsuccessful Vehicle
There is no other option, unless you like unsuccessful things.
Frank Costa and the "SHOrage"
Not to repeat myself, but - "Cam Welds - a BARGAIN at twice the price"
Just do it - you'll drive better - you'll sleep better.
Karl H. Kramer, Jr.